England v Germany

[Lord Zola]

John Terry only sprang to my mind I was thinking along the lines of a person who put some blood and guts into his game with a lot of heart and willing to put his life along the line as did pastmaster defenders like Franco Baressi and Fabio Cannavaro did for thier clubs and country and they were not to shabby were they? Although they are not managers are they?
I think you might agree with the idea of a hard man your team is not always a detriment to the side, i,m not sure who you are but, i dont suppose you won anything without having at least one or maybe two in your team.
I haven,t got all the answers, i,m just bloody annoyed that the FA haven,t either.

I doubt if much has changed since I was at school, when the biggest players were always picked above the smaller players, regardless of considering such a thing as a first touch.

You see it a County Level all the time, rubbish players playing football on the basis that they are 6,3" and 14 stone of muscle. In this country the smaller players have to really stand out and have much more abilty than the big guys in order to get a fair crack of the whip.

[Shiner]

John Terry only sprang to my mind I was thinking along the lines of a person who put some blood and guts into his game with a lot of heart and willing to put his life along the line as did pastmaster defenders like Franco Baressi and Fabio Cannavaro did for thier clubs and country and they were not to shabby were they? Although they are not managers are they?
I think you might agree with the idea of a hard man your team is not always a detriment to the side, i,m not sure who you are but, i dont suppose you won anything without having at least one or maybe two in your team.
I haven,t got all the answers, i,m just bloody annoyed that the FA haven,t either.

Are you seriously comparing John Terry to Franco Baresi and Fabio Cannavaro!!!

Yes of course they were hard men, particularly Baresi but they could play a bit too....Im not sure what your point is because you agree that they weren't too shabby!!!

John Terry has and has never had either the pace or ability of those two players.....both of whom are world cup winners!

Which what my point is, that to be WORLD CLASS you need ALL the attributes not just to be big strong and 100% committed!!!

Its where we go wrong....even on here we are applauding someone for simply being 100% committed.....thats the minimum requirement isnt it?

[yellow peril]

Unfortunatly we are all guilty for the performance in south africa .How many of us go and watch premier league games and pay our HARD earned money so we can line the pockets of these overpaid premadonas ? Yes im guilty but not no more ,not a penny of my money will now go on merchandise or tickets to watch these players in that league ,its time for us as fans to have our say, or do we just sit here and let these players /managers /fa continue to take the piss out of us ?It wont make a blind bit of difference my stand against the premier league and all it stands for, but if enough empty seats start appearing at games then questions will soon be asked ,problem is people are guliable enough to continue buying tickets and watching and lining players pockets , sooner it stops the better ,they are paid too much money and have lost the passion required to enable england to at least compete on the world stage ,its reality time check for us all ,lets start by building the excellence centre at Burton in derbyshire , invest in the english youth and get some kind of limit on the amount of foriegn players playing at clubs here .Its the only answer i can see , maybe im wrong but my minds made up from now on its good old non league for me

[watson]

John Terry only sprang to my mind I was thinking along the lines of a person who put some blood and guts into his game with a lot of heart and willing to put his life along the line as did pastmaster defenders like Franco Baressi and Fabio Cannavaro did for thier clubs and country and they were not to shabby were they? Although they are not managers are they?
I think you might agree with the idea of a hard man your team is not always a detriment to the side, i,m not sure who you are but, i dont suppose you won anything without having at least one or maybe two in your team.
I haven,t got all the answers, i,m just bloody annoyed that the FA haven,t either.

Are you seriously comparing John Terry to Franco Baresi and Fabio Cannavaro!!!

Yes of course they were hard men, particularly Baresi but they could play a bit too....Im not sure what your point is because you agree that they weren't too shabby!!!

John Terry has and has never had either the pace or ability of those two players.....both of whom are world cup winners!

Which what my point is, that to be WORLD CLASS you need ALL the attributes not just to be big strong and 100% committed!!!

Its where we go wrong....even on here we are applauding someone for simply being 100% committed.....thats the minimum requirement isnt it?

No of coarse i,m not seriously comparing Terry with the two Italians, i problably didn,t get my point across.

I suppose i was trying to say that he was nearly the only one of the team that was 100% committed even if he did play like a plank, and not in slightest bit world class, and thought maybe he should try his hand at something else like managing or coaching.

I bet that as clear as mud.

Anyway lets hope the standard coaching improves from grassroots football all the way through to the top.

[Jester]

Where do you start?

I actually tipped Germany to beat us much to the disgust of most my mates. After seeing our opening 3 games i don't think it was even a hard pick to make. I had been saying long be the world cup started that we are simply not good enough. How the bookies manage to make us one of the favourites for every major competition is astonishing given our record.

Shiner is right, we use the term "world class" far too easily. His discription of John Terry hurt me a bit because it was a bit too close to home . But spot on none the less. I would say we have some good players, but "world class"?

The writing was on the wall before a ball was even kicked for me. Who remembers the media reaction to Gareth Barry's ankle injury? Our world cup chances were thown into doubt when Barry got injured. Even Capello come out and stressed how important he was to the team. Really? Gareth Barry? Gareth Barry is a neat and tidy player who sits in, holds his shape and attempts to keep things ticking over. Players like him should be ten a penny IMO. It's not like he is Gazza or Hoddle for christ sake. This is a player who has zero pace, can not go past a player, does not score goals etc. We were acting like we had just lost our Lionel Messi. What other top national in the competition would be threating abt losing Barry?

When the competition starts my fears are quickly confirmed. You can talk abt the team set up and formations all day long but when sides like ALGERIA look more comfortable in posession than we do, you know you have problems.

Capello is not blameless in it all. But for people to hold him soley responsible is a joke. Yes, i am baffled by the inclusion of Heskey. Yes, i am bewildered by the rigid 4-4-2 formation when every other top club team and nation side play 4-5-1 that quickly reverts to 4-5-3. However, when are we going to realise the players are just not that good? No matter what formation he picks it does not change the fact that our players could not perform the BASICS!! Throughout the competition our players displayed a lack of a good touch, poor technique, an inability to pass the ball and retain posession. We had no guile or imagination and not ONE player who had the ability to go past a player. What's our game come to when we do not have one player in our national side that can throw a step over and go past a player. Someone who has the confidence or ability to attempt the unexpected, a drag back, a cute flick in the final 3rd etc. Capello can't coach 30 year old players to do those things. Which means we have to go back to the start. Change the way we develop our kids!!!

How many of you have watched a kids game recently down your local park or attended a 5 aside tournerment? I will guarantee you will hear the same commands coming from the touchline. Play it easy, don't take too many touches, don't lose it there etc etc. We are talking abt kids here of ages 8,9,10 etc. Surely we should encourage them to express themselves? Why not encourage them to look to beat the man instead of taking the easy option and passing it sideways? Why not encourage them to try the audacious flick or drag over? Instead of clearing their lines when under pressure, can we not see if they can play out of trouble? I am no coach but i feel we need to change our way of thinking in this country. Do you honestly think the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Robinho etc were told to keep things easy, look for the simple pass, don't try anything to fancy etc? How do we ever expect to produce talents like that if our kids cannot play without fear? So when we were watching the game against Germany is it any wonder that we have 11 players on the pitch who can only play the ball backwards and sideways in a predictable fashion?

I read a very good article from Dennis Bergkamp years ago. He spoke about his development in Holland as a player. He mentioned how growing up he never knew what position he was going to play. Ajax didn't believe in "labelling" players. They just looked to develop ball skills, touch, technique etc. He spoke abt playing in all kinds of positions. Right back, sweeper, centre forward, wide. He said the idea was to develop players who were comfortable on the ball in any area on the pitch. He asked a question, why shouldn't a Centre Back have the ability to go by a player? Why should a Centre Back not have the ability to retain the ball just like any other player on the pitch? The message was simple, develop the players technique etc first and the position will come naturally as he matures.

Now i look at that in contrast to when i was a kid. The second i walked through the door at my local club there was only one position i was going to play. I startd at CB and i have stayed there my intire life. "he's a big boy, at the back you go son" . I swear at 15 my Brighton Boys team did not have a player under 6 foot tall. A lot of which were finished playing by the end of youth football because others had caught them up physically and they could no longer bully their way through.

Canavarro has been mentioned on this thread. On the slide now but has been a WORLD CLASS CB and won just abt everything there is in the game. Standing at abt 5 foot 8, how long do you think it would have taken for him to be dismissed as a CB in this country?

I'm off work today incase you can't tell

[michael]

Where do you start?

I actually tipped Germany to beat us much to the disgust of most my mates. After seeing our opening 3 games i don't think it was even a hard pick to make. I had been saying long be the world cup started that we are simply not good enough. How the bookies manage to make us one of the favourites for every major competition is astonishing given our record.

Shiner is right, we use the term "world class" far too easily. His discription of John Terry hurt me a bit because it was a bit too close to home . But spot on none the less. I would say we have some good players, but "world class"?

The writing was on the wall before a ball was even kicked for me. Who remembers the media reaction to Gareth Barry's ankle injury? Our world cup chances were thown into doubt when Barry got injured. Even Capello come out and stressed how important he was to the team. Really? Gareth Barry? Gareth Barry is a neat and tidy player who sits in, holds his shape and attempts to keep things ticking over. Players like him should be ten a penny IMO. It's not like he is Gazza or Hoddle for christ sake. This is a player who has zero pace, can not go past a player, does not score goals etc. We were acting like we had just lost our Lionel Messi. What other top national in the competition would be threating abt losing Barry?

When the competition starts my fears are quickly confirmed. You can talk abt the team set up and formations all day long but when sides like ALGERIA look more comfortable in posession than we do, you know you have problems.

Capello is not blameless in it all. But for people to hold him soley responsible is a joke. Yes, i am baffled by the inclusion of Heskey. Yes, i am bewildered by the rigid 4-4-2 formation when every other top club team and nation side play 4-5-1 that quickly reverts to 4-5-3. However, when are we going to realise the players are just not that good? No matter what formation he picks it does not change the fact that our players could not perform the BASICS!! Throughout the competition our players displayed a lack of a good touch, poor technique, an inability to pass the ball and retain posession. We had no guile or imagination and not ONE player who had the ability to go past a player. What's our game come to when we do not have one player in our national side that can throw a step over and go past a player. Someone who has the confidence or ability to attempt the unexpected, a drag back, a cute flick in the final 3rd etc. Capello can't coach 30 year old players to do those things. Which means we have to go back to the start. Change the way we develop our kids!!!

How many of you have watched a kids game recently down your local park or attended a 5 aside tournerment? I will guarantee you will hear the same commands coming from the touchline. Play it easy, don't take too many touches, don't lose it there etc etc. We are talking abt kids here of ages 8,9,10 etc. Surely we should encourage them to express themselves? Why not encourage them to look to beat the man instead of taking the easy option and passing it sideways? Why not encourage them to try the audacious flick or drag over? Instead of clearing their lines when under pressure, can we not see if they can play out of trouble? I am no coach but i feel we need to change our way of thinking in this country. Do you honestly think the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Robinho etc were told to keep things easy, look for the simple pass, don't try anything to fancy etc? How do we ever expect to produce talents like that if our kids cannot play without fear? So when we were watching the game against Germany is it any wonder that we have 11 players on the pitch who can only play the ball backwards and sideways in a predictable fashion?

I read a very good article from Dennis Bergkamp years ago. He spoke about his development in Holland as a player. He mentioned how growing up he never knew what position he was going to play. Ajax didn't believe in "labelling" players. They just looked to develop ball skills, touch, technique etc. He spoke abt playing in all kinds of positions. Right back, sweeper, centre forward, wide. He said the idea was to develop players who were comfortable on the ball in any area on the pitch. He asked a question, why shouldn't a Centre Back have the ability to go by a player? Why should a Centre Back not have the ability to retain the ball just like any other player on the pitch? The message was simple, develop the players technique etc first and the position will come naturally as he matures.

Now i look at that in contrast to when i was a kid. The second i walked through the door at my local club there was only one position i was going to play. I startd at CB and i have stayed there my intire life. "he's a big boy, at the back you go son" . I swear at 15 my Brighton Boys team did not have a player under 6 foot tall. A lot of which were finished playing by the end of youth football because others had caught them up physically and they could no longer bully their way through.

Canavarro has been mentioned on this thread. On the slide now but has been a WORLD CLASS CB and won just abt everything there is in the game. Standing at abt 5 foot 8, how long do you think it would have taken for him to be dismissed as a CB in this country?

I'm off work today incase you can't tell

4-5-3- no wonder we had a problem ,boy the ball and flair description bought back memories of you playing at the back at east preston .Jester an excellant thread well put together

[davidhammers]

I agree with Jester, particularly about youngsters being discouraged and coached out of using any flair or imagination. Ruud Gullit was another one like Berkamp that played every position. And look at Lucio bringing the ball out from the back without fear for Brazil. Can you imagine for one second Matthew Upson trying that when there's nothing on? He was quite content to hoof the ball into no mans land out for a goal kick on at least 6 occasions. So poor. We also rarely saw any goal kicks from us taken short looking to play in the 4 matches - that can surely come from Capello's instructions. I know that one season at Bognor they banned long balls from goal kicks during preseason just to practice getting into good habits.

[its only a game]

Makes Sven look good now.

Everyone could see the Germas were playing triangles around us for the first 35 mins. Just change the system to 4-5-1 I was screaming at the TV like 40m other people.

Yes we were 2nd best for 2/3rds of the game, but we can feel a little down about the Lampard 'goal'. We all know 2-2 at h/t would have been a damn sight better than 2-1 down, and you can't say it did not change the game, because it did.

The game stats actually show we had more possession, more corners, more shots on target, more shots overall, and comitted less fouls. However the key stat says they scored 4 and we scored 1!!!

Their first goal was JT fault in my opinion, he ran under the ball while it was in flight, to pick up their spare centre midfeild player. Second goal well credit Klose for his movement out wide creating the space for Muller, but where was Upson and Terry (again). Their 3rd and 4th goals were..........well gifts shall we say.

We have good layers but not a GREAT team. I watched Gutteriez come on for the Argies the other night, and thought would England pick a Newcastle player who has spent a year in the Championship, e,g, Kevin Nolan...............NO is the answer. But I think our view that Gerrard, Lampard, and even people like SWP are 'world class' is our blocker to picking a 'TEAM'. For me Cappello broke with his succesful view that you are picked on form rather than reputation which I think he employed during qualification. The squad he ended up with was almost the same as previous sqauds who have all FAILED. Carragher, Terry, Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard, Joe Cole, A Cole.

I said it at the time to my mates and I'll say it again now. We should have taken as many of our Under 21s for last summer as we could. I would have taken Adam Johnson, Theo Walcott, played Joe Hart in each match, also thought about Onouha (Man C).

I would have taken Downing. Being left footed I always found a real advantage to playing left midfield or wing!! And Micah Richards, once Wes Brown was out, ahead of Carragher...........

So who would I not take, Joe Cole, SWP, Heskey, Carragher, for a start.

I hope we are brave and play our youngsters more. Not that Lampard or Gerrard should be out, but we nned to develop our TEAM.

[Lord Zola]

Makes Sven look good now.

Everyone could see the Germas were playing triangles around us for the first 35 mins. Just change the system to 4-5-1 I was screaming at the TV like 40m other people.

You have hit the nail on the head here, I agree we have our faults as a team, and from a technical level we are difficient, but we still have players in my opinion that can compete with the best, this is shown week in week out in the Premiership and Champions League. The issue is that they were fed to the dogs by Capello, after 20mins you could see the rigid shape of 4-4-2 could not cope with the Germans, yet we continued with it, and eventually paid the price.

The Lampard goal was also a huge blow, as the 3rd and 4th goals would not have come if we were not chasing the game. The way we defended them was embarassing, but nethertheless, we were caught upfield with to many men, because we were unfairly a goal down.

Just one thing, the consensus here seems to be that John Terry is at best, a "average" defender, I'd be interested to know who are the "World Class" center backs currently out there?

[Jester]

Makes Sven look good now.

Everyone could see the Germas were playing triangles around us for the first 35 mins. Just change the system to 4-5-1 I was screaming at the TV like 40m other people.

Yes we were 2nd best for 2/3rds of the game, but we can feel a little down about the Lampard 'goal'. We all know 2-2 at h/t would have been a damn sight better than 2-1 down, and you can't say it did not change the game, because it did.

The game stats actually show we had more possession, more corners, more shots on target, more shots overall, and comitted less fouls. However the key stat says they scored 4 and we scored 1!!!

Their first goal was JT fault in my opinion, he ran under the ball while it was in flight, to pick up their spare centre midfeild player. Second goal well credit Klose for his movement out wide creating the space for Muller, but where was Upson and Terry (again). Their 3rd and 4th goals were..........well gifts shall we say.

We have good layers but not a GREAT team. I watched Gutteriez come on for the Argies the other night, and thought would England pick a Newcastle player who has spent a year in the Championship, e,g, Kevin Nolan...............NO is the answer. But I think our view that Gerrard, Lampard, and even people like SWP are 'world class' is our blocker to picking a 'TEAM'. For me Cappello broke with his succesful view that you are picked on form rather than reputation which I think he employed during qualification. The squad he ended up with was almost the same as previous sqauds who have all FAILED. Carragher, Terry, Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard, Joe Cole, A Cole.

I said it at the time to my mates and I'll say it again now. We should have taken as many of our Under 21s for last summer as we could. I would have taken Adam Johnson, Theo Walcott, played Joe Hart in each match, also thought about Onouha (Man C).

I would have taken Downing. Being left footed I always found a real advantage to playing left midfield or wing!! And Micah Richards, once Wes Brown was out, ahead of Carragher...........

So who would I not take, Joe Cole, SWP, Heskey, Carragher, for a start.

I hope we are brave and play our youngsters more. Not that Lampard or Gerrard should be out, but we nned to develop our TEAM.

As i said in my post, Capello is not blameless. I just feel that talking abt formations, shape etc is papering over the cracks some what. No matter what formation you play, you do not expect Wayne Rooney take a touch and the ball bounce off him 5 yards? No matter how you line up it doesn't change the fact that Lennon cannot pick his up and find an Enlgand shirt in the final 3rd.

Just about everyone (top sides) in world football play 451/443 and they all can't be wrong? With so much enthesis on controlling the midfield and dictating the pace of the game it's almost a must in the modern game at the highest level.

You talk about England having more possession but Germany were still in control when we had the ball. We only had the ball in the areas of the pitch they allowed us to have. How many passes across out back four in our half of the pitch? As soon as we looked to play forwards they snuffed us out. We would have the ball for 10 passes and never look like causing a problem. They would brake and within 3 passes be at our back line. We may have had more shots but from how far out? They had atleast 7 chances with just our keeper to beat? Yes we had the ball a lot but NEVER controlled the game

You have blamed Terry for the first goal but there are two others IMO aswell. Terry gets caught under the ball, but any defender knows when one attacks the other drops off and gets around on the cover. Where was Upson when Terry gets caught? Also, the ball travelled the length of the pitch and Klose poked home from 12 yards out. Where the hell was James? If his starting position is right it's his ball surely?

The second goal was also shocking. A bit of movement dragged both Upson and Terry out, both had decided to get tight to there men (as they did all game) instead of dropping off and when te ball was popped into the space behind they were always going to struggle because neither have the pace to recover. I don't even want to talk about Glen Johnsons positioning for the goal.

3rd goal is another strange one. Lampard lines up another free kick from 30 yards out. I don't think there was ever any secret in what he was going to do. Why did both our centre backs go up for it? It was not like he was ever going to dink it in the box? We were left totally exposed to the counter and that was with 30 mins to go.

4th goal. Half way line, Barry has to clean him out and take a booking?

All avoidable goals come from basic errors. No matter what formation you play, if you cannot perform the basics right you are going to lose games.

The problem was Ozil in the hole. IMO Barry had to pick him up. What we had was Terry and Upson not knowing whether to get tight to him or drop off and let him have it. Time and time again one of them got sucked out of position leaving a hole in behind to play into, leaving one on one situations. Barry did not know whether he was coming or going and did not have a clue how to deal with Ozil. Imagine what a Messi would have done to us?

As a centre half, if you lack pace (which i know plenty about) you must know when to get tight and when to hold your position and let the forward come off and have it. Terry and Upson pressed tight to their man time and time again (maybe under instruction from Capello) leaving holes in behind them. And making recovery runs is never going to be a strong point in their games.

[michael]

Makes Sven look good now.

Everyone could see the Germas were playing triangles around us for the first 35 mins. Just change the system to 4-5-1 I was screaming at the TV like 40m other people.

Yes we were 2nd best for 2/3rds of the game, but we can feel a little down about the Lampard 'goal'. We all know 2-2 at h/t would have been a damn sight better than 2-1 down, and you can't say it did not change the game, because it did.

The game stats actually show we had more possession, more corners, more shots on target, more shots overall, and comitted less fouls. However the key stat says they scored 4 and we scored 1!!!

Their first goal was JT fault in my opinion, he ran under the ball while it was in flight, to pick up their spare centre midfeild player. Second goal well credit Klose for his movement out wide creating the space for Muller, but where was Upson and Terry (again). Their 3rd and 4th goals were..........well gifts shall we say.

We have good layers but not a GREAT team. I watched Gutteriez come on for the Argies the other night, and thought would England pick a Newcastle player who has spent a year in the Championship, e,g, Kevin Nolan...............NO is the answer. But I think our view that Gerrard, Lampard, and even people like SWP are 'world class' is our blocker to picking a 'TEAM'. For me Cappello broke with his succesful view that you are picked on form rather than reputation which I think he employed during qualification. The squad he ended up with was almost the same as previous sqauds who have all FAILED. Carragher, Terry, Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard, Joe Cole, A Cole.

I said it at the time to my mates and I'll say it again now. We should have taken as many of our Under 21s for last summer as we could. I would have taken Adam Johnson, Theo Walcott, played Joe Hart in each match, also thought about Onouha (Man C).

I would have taken Downing. Being left footed I always found a real advantage to playing left midfield or wing!! And Micah Richards, once Wes Brown was out, ahead of Carragher...........

So who would I not take, Joe Cole, SWP, Heskey, Carragher, for a start.

I hope we are brave and play our youngsters more. Not that Lampard or Gerrard should be out, but we nned to develop our TEAM.

As i said in my post, Capello is not blameless. I just feel that talking abt formations, shape etc is papering over the cracks some what. No matter what formation you play, you do not expect Wayne Rooney take a touch and the ball bounce off him 5 yards? No matter how you line up it doesn't change the fact that Lennon cannot pick his up and find an Enlgand shirt in the final 3rd.

Just about everyone (top sides) in world football play 451/443 and they all can't be wrong? With so much enthesis on controlling the midfield and dictating the pace of the game it's almost a must in the modern game at the highest level.

You talk about England having more possession but Germany were still in control when we had the ball. We only had the ball in the areas of the pitch they allowed us to have. How many passes across out back four in our half of the pitch? As soon as we looked to play forwards they snuffed us out. We would have the ball for 10 passes and never look like causing a problem. They would brake and within 3 passes be at our back line. We may have had more shots but from how far out? They had atleast 7 chances with just our keeper to beat? Yes we had the ball a lot but NEVER controlled the game

You have blamed Terry for the first goal but there are two others IMO aswell. Terry gets caught under the ball, but any defender knows when one attacks the other drops off and gets around on the cover. Where was Upson when Terry gets caught? Also, the ball travelled the length of the pitch and Klose poked home from 12 yards out. Where the hell was James? If his starting position is right it's his ball surely?

The second goal was also shocking. A bit of movement dragged both Upson and Terry out, both had decided to get tight to there men (as they did all game) instead of dropping off and when te ball was popped into the space behind they were always going to struggle because neither have the pace to recover. I don't even want to talk about Glen Johnsons positioning for the goal.

3rd goal is another strange one. Lampard lines up another free kick from 30 yards out. I don't think there was ever any secret in what he was going to do. Why did both our centre backs go up for it? It was not like he was ever going to dink it in the box? We were left totally exposed to the counter and that was with 30 mins to go.

4th goal. Half way line, Barry has to clean him out and take a booking?

All avoidable goals come from basic errors. No matter what formation you play, if you cannot perform the basics right you are going to lose games.

The problem was Ozil in the hole. IMO Barry had to pick him up. What we had was Terry and Upson not knowing whether to get tight to him or drop off and let him have it. Time and time again one of them got sucked out of position leaving a hole in behind to play into, leaving one on one situations. Barry did not know whether he was coming or going and did not have a clue how to deal with Ozil. Imagine what a Messi would have done to us?

As a centre half, if you lack pace (which i know plenty about) you must know when to get tight and when to hold your position and let the forward come off and have it. Terry and Upson pressed tight to their man time and time again (maybe under instruction from Capello) leaving holes in behind them. And making recovery runs is never going to be a strong point in their games.

4 4 3 ,your getting closer jester!

[Lord Zola]

Makes Sven look good now.

Everyone could see the Germas were playing triangles around us for the first 35 mins. Just change the system to 4-5-1 I was screaming at the TV like 40m other people.

Yes we were 2nd best for 2/3rds of the game, but we can feel a little down about the Lampard 'goal'. We all know 2-2 at h/t would have been a damn sight better than 2-1 down, and you can't say it did not change the game, because it did.

The game stats actually show we had more possession, more corners, more shots on target, more shots overall, and comitted less fouls. However the key stat says they scored 4 and we scored 1!!!

Their first goal was JT fault in my opinion, he ran under the ball while it was in flight, to pick up their spare centre midfeild player. Second goal well credit Klose for his movement out wide creating the space for Muller, but where was Upson and Terry (again). Their 3rd and 4th goals were..........well gifts shall we say.

We have good layers but not a GREAT team. I watched Gutteriez come on for the Argies the other night, and thought would England pick a Newcastle player who has spent a year in the Championship, e,g, Kevin Nolan...............NO is the answer. But I think our view that Gerrard, Lampard, and even people like SWP are 'world class' is our blocker to picking a 'TEAM'. For me Cappello broke with his succesful view that you are picked on form rather than reputation which I think he employed during qualification. The squad he ended up with was almost the same as previous sqauds who have all FAILED. Carragher, Terry, Heskey, Gerrard, Lampard, Joe Cole, A Cole.

I said it at the time to my mates and I'll say it again now. We should have taken as many of our Under 21s for last summer as we could. I would have taken Adam Johnson, Theo Walcott, played Joe Hart in each match, also thought about Onouha (Man C).

I would have taken Downing. Being left footed I always found a real advantage to playing left midfield or wing!! And Micah Richards, once Wes Brown was out, ahead of Carragher...........

So who would I not take, Joe Cole, SWP, Heskey, Carragher, for a start.

I hope we are brave and play our youngsters more. Not that Lampard or Gerrard should be out, but we nned to develop our TEAM.

As i said in my post, Capello is not blameless. I just feel that talking abt formations, shape etc is papering over the cracks some what. No matter what formation you play, you do not expect Wayne Rooney take a touch and the ball bounce off him 5 yards? No matter how you line up it doesn't change the fact that Lennon cannot pick his up and find an Enlgand shirt in the final 3rd.

Just about everyone (top sides) in world football play 451/443 and they all can't be wrong? With so much enthesis on controlling the midfield and dictating the pace of the game it's almost a must in the modern game at the highest level.

You talk about England having more possession but Germany were still in control when we had the ball. We only had the ball in the areas of the pitch they allowed us to have. How many passes across out back four in our half of the pitch? As soon as we looked to play forwards they snuffed us out. We would have the ball for 10 passes and never look like causing a problem. They would brake and within 3 passes be at our back line. We may have had more shots but from how far out? They had atleast 7 chances with just our keeper to beat? Yes we had the ball a lot but NEVER controlled the game

You have blamed Terry for the first goal but there are two others IMO aswell. Terry gets caught under the ball, but any defender knows when one attacks the other drops off and gets around on the cover. Where was Upson when Terry gets caught? Also, the ball travelled the length of the pitch and Klose poked home from 12 yards out. Where the hell was James? If his starting position is right it's his ball surely?

The second goal was also shocking. A bit of movement dragged both Upson and Terry out, both had decided to get tight to there men (as they did all game) instead of dropping off and when te ball was popped into the space behind they were always going to struggle because neither have the pace to recover. I don't even want to talk about Glen Johnsons positioning for the goal.

3rd goal is another strange one. Lampard lines up another free kick from 30 yards out. I don't think there was ever any secret in what he was going to do. Why did both our centre backs go up for it? It was not like he was ever going to dink it in the box? We were left totally exposed to the counter and that was with 30 mins to go.

4th goal. Half way line, Barry has to clean him out and take a booking?

All avoidable goals come from basic errors. No matter what formation you play, if you cannot perform the basics right you are going to lose games.

The problem was Ozil in the hole. IMO Barry had to pick him up. What we had was Terry and Upson not knowing whether to get tight to him or drop off and let him have it. Time and time again one of them got sucked out of position leaving a hole in behind to play into, leaving one on one situations. Barry did not know whether he was coming or going and did not have a clue how to deal with Ozil. Imagine what a Messi would have done to us?

As a centre half, if you lack pace (which i know plenty about) you must know when to get tight and when to hold your position and let the forward come off and have it. Terry and Upson pressed tight to their man time and time again (maybe under instruction from Capello) leaving holes in behind them. And making recovery runs is never going to be a strong point in their games.

Martin Samual is in agreement on the Barry aspect.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldc ... erous.html

[Jester]

I noticed that about half hour after posting and have been waiting for your response

Maybe with 4 4 3 we would have had a chance?

I'm glad you're hanging on every word in my posts though

[Geoff]

Just one thing, the consensus here seems to be that John Terry is at best, a "average" defender, I'd be interested to know who are the "World Class" center backs currently out there?

Before the Germany game everyone was saying what a great game he had against Slovenia ... I believe there is a lot of contradiction due to heart felt feelings. He had a totally bad game v Germany, without a doubt, but as I said before, everyone was safe in the knowledge we had him in the heart of our defence.

Can I also just say that Ashley Cole had an almost perfect tournament at left back but he cannot win it on his own. The talk now is that David James was our player of the tournament because he saved us from embarrassment personified. It's a shame people don't remember how good Ashley Cole was in a very mediocre team, with no cover in left midfield, defending superbly and not being able to maraude forward in his usual fashion thanks to the 4-3-1-2 we played... the 1 being Gerrard that did everything but help his left back be a danger.

And please, please, please stop asking for the head of the manager and asking for an English manager... what did the last two do for us and what makes anyone think the next one would be better? If there is one out there. Steve McClaren again anyone?